Over the weekend, the state’s high school athletic governing body released its pre-season seedings and regions for the boys lacrosse tournament this spring. You can see the full document here, but the important details:
Division 1 Seeds
- Brother Rice
- Holt
- Ann Arbor Pioneer
- Detroit Catholic Central
- Rockford
- Forest Hills Eastern/Northern
- Clarkston
- Brighton
Division 2 Seeds
- Detroit Country Day
- Forest Hills Central
- East Grand Rapids
- Cranbrook
- Notre Dame Prep
- Warren De La Salle
- Haslett-Williamston
- Dexter
That’s pretty much non-surprising all the way around. Sure, arguments could be made for Team A a little higher than Team B, but your heavy hitters of boys lacrosse earned approximately the expected seeds (except these “Brother Rice” jerks, what have they ever done to earn a 1-seed?).
Far more controversial, though buried in the press release, is the location for the finals of the 2013 tournament:
MHSAA Final: June 8, 2013 East Grand Rapids 2pm
There is much indignation from lacrosse’s old guard in the state that the final isn’t held at Seaholm or Cranbrook but… I don’t see it.
Allow me to mount my soapbox (and probably upset friend-of-the-blog Reg Hartner, but so be it):
For a group that seems to do nothing but complain about how “things just aren’t like they used to be” or “the level of play in the state is going down the drain,” what can possibly be the downside of a state tournament final on the west side of the state? That you have to drive an hour and a half from your Oakland County home to make it there? The Forest Hills teams and East Grand Rapids and Rockford have had to do that every year.
I simply can’t see a downside to exposing a new area to the highest level of play in the high school game other than “it’s a little inconvenient for me.”
Tim, you make a reasonable case from the “heart” side of the issue, but here’s the practical (head) downside of the matter:
1) Southeast MI has 50% of the state’s population, with Metro Detroit accounting for 43% of the state’s total. On the other hand, the Grand Rapids region has 15% of the state’s citizens.
2) It’s actually closer to 2 to 3 hours drive for most people from Metro Detroit/SE MI to EGR.
3) 70% of the this state’s teams are from SE MI and only about 20% are from the west side. Of those 20 or so western teams, only 1/4 of them are truly competitive programs.
4) For an example from another sport…the UP has good hockey teams, but the MHSAA would never hold the finals there.
5) Only 1 year (2011) had 2 of the 4 teams in the D1/D2 Finals from western MI. Every other year has had only one team from there. It’s entirely possible that some years may see none.
With all of that said, of course it would be nice for the west side to have their chance (even rotating every other year) at hosting the Finals, however, I’m not quite sure that we’re there yet.
Southeast Michigan has 50% of the state’s population, and 70% of the lacrosse teams… The finals have been within 10 miles of, say, Brother Rice 100% of the years (exactly one mile away half the time). Isn’t it time to spread the wealth a bit?
Distribution of Finals Teams by County:
2005: Oakland 2, Kent 1, Wayne 1
2006: Oakland 3, Kent 1
2007: Oakland 3, Kent 1
2008: Oakland 1, Kent 2, Wayne 1
2009: Oakland 2, Kent 1, Wayne 1,
2010: Oakland 3, Kent 1
2011: Oakland 2, Kent 2
2012: Oakland 2, Kent 1, Washtenaw 1
Kent has accounted for 10 of 32 finalists since the MHSAA has been in control of the tournament. It stands to figure that they deserve the finals 30% of the time, not 0%, right?
Again, for a group of folk who do nothing but bitch and moan about how the MHSAA is stunting growth of the game, the “old guard” type sure seem to be as hypocritical as can be when the MHSAA does something to help the game grow.
Also:
There’s a zero percent chance that it’s closer to three hours for just about anyone in the metro Detroit area – let’s be honest, we’re talking about Oakland County here – to get to East Grand Rapids. I get from my house (within a couple miles of Brother Rice and Country Day) to my parents’ house (Forest Hills) in under two hours easily. And, uh, the Grand Rapids people would have to make (have had to make) the exact same drive if we’re going in the other direction, anyway.
Oops I forgot to mention that East Grand Rapids is a nicer venue by a factor of about five than either Troy Athens or Birmingham Seaholm. My bad.
I agree with Tim and since it’s it is labeled as the State Finals, why not hold on the west side of the state? I think that is a great opportunity to grow the game, it gets people who normally wouldn’t be able to drive to the east side on Tuesday, to catch Brother Rice game to be able to catch one on a Saturday. There are some really good teams on the west side of the state and they deserve ever right to host the state finals.
Let me fix some of my grammar mistakes, the passage should read:
I agree with Tim and since it’s labeled the State Finals, why not hold on the west side of the state? I think that is a great opportunity to grow the game, it gets people who normally wouldn’t be able to drive to the east side on Tuesday, to catch Brother Rice game to be able to catch one on a Saturday. There are some really good teams on the west side of the state and they deserve every right to host the state finals.
Tim, I stand by my numbers and reasoning. You’re a numbers guy, yet you’re ignoring the raw tallies and using a very small sample size to achieve a highly skewed result to support your opinion. The population and school numbers paint a far more accurate picture of the reality of the situation.
“Spread the wealth” is a loaded term (especially these days), and this discussion actually provides a small example of something that might sound good but not be very practical nor well reasoned. In fact, it could take on some ridiculous proportions, such as moving the nation’s capital to Kansas, since it’s the center of the country and middle of the population.
As for driving, your 2 hour drive time equals an average of 74 mph. Of course one would have to drive well over 80 mph to make up for slower speeds on side roads before/after getting to 696/96. I’m not sure that’s a very reasonable option for everyone, and certainly not a school bus. That’s just for someone from the Birmingham-Bloomfield area. Anywhere east of there would of course would be further away and have to drive even faster!
Another point about state finals locations. Many other sports (other than hockey and lacrosse) tend to be held in the middle rather than one side or the other. That fact demonstrates another aspect of the somewhat extreme nature of hosting lacrosse in an area with only 20% of the teams (and 1/4 of those only have a realistic chance of playing in it).
True enough, EGR is a much nicer venue than BS or TA, but you should know that anyone that’s truly “Old Guard” doesn’t think very highly of the Finals being at BS nor TA.
I’m aware that the “Old Guard” would rather have the finals at Cranbrook every year. My point remains the same: the “sample size” of every single time the state finals have been held indicates that it’s the West’s turn to host the finals – in fact, it’s long overdue. It doesn’t matter how many kids play lacrosse in Warren, or at Seaholm/Groves, or at Walled Lake Schools. The fact of the matter is that those teams have never played for a state title, while every single year a team from the Westside has had to travel across the state to play a team whose members slept in their own beds 10 minutes from the competition venue the night before.
And spare me the not-thinly-veiled socialism reference. This is high school sports, not the economy. Things are supposed to be fair, and should be designed to accomplish as much fairness as possible. I’m not one of the idiots on the MLive forum saying “YOU SHOULD NAIL BROTHER RISE FOR CHEETING BECAUSE FAIR,” but to deny the West side teams a chance to play within half an hour of home “because I said so” isn’t fair either.
I don’t think anybody is going to beat Rice any time soon, but you never know what might have changed in a few years here and there if schools from one region didn’t have the advantage every. single. time.
LOVE the Mlive fabrication!
If you’ve been on the MLive forum, you know that’s as close to true as it comes without directly quoting.
Now, the majority of the (more reasonable) MLive posters typically shout down that brand of idiocy, but there are a lot of people who follow that line of thinking.
I’m getting heated (and probably unnecessarily so – please understand that I’m not trying to offend you, and I’m sure you’re not trying to offend me, either), but I want to point out one thing. Your mentions of “raw tallies” will never add up. Until the number of state finals held outside of a five-mile radius of Maple and Crooks is grater than zero, the demographics won’t justify having every single final within that range, either.
There are exactly 100 teams on the MHSAA’s division list for 2013. 69 of those (an easy 69%) are from outside of Oakland County. That’s far more stark than 31% of the teams in the finals coming from outside the country. Regardless of where you live (I’ve ridden my bike to the last two MHSAA finals – Seaholm is a great location for me) there is no reasonable argument other than “I want it to be this way” that the finals should be in Oakland County every single year.
That’s especially true for a sport that has an unofficial mantra in many sectors: “Grow the Game.” Keeping it in a 5-mile radius of one location is definitely not helping that goal.
Tim, likewise, I’m not trying to offend you…if anything, the fact that you’re getting heated shows that you have a real passion for the game, which is a good thing.
Likewise, I hope that this move wasn’t part of some kind of misguided, thinly-veiled attempt to somehow try to help unseat Brother Rice. Yes, it would be nice to see a team(s) rise up and truly challenge the Warriors, but do it on the field, not with behind the scenes antics.
The sport of lacrosse has grown quite nicely in places such as Ohio, California, and Colorado without any of those places hosting the NCAA Championship. For the same reasons (on a much larger scale) of geography, number of teams, and population…the Final Four won’t be in any of those places anytime soon. In fact, the same can be said of the US Lacrosse Convention.
In fact, the NCAA and its Final Four weekend should serve as a cautionary tale regarding this matter. Attendance has been on the decline the past few years, especially when the event was moved to Boston (away from the Baltimore-Philly epicenter). Yes, there were also other factors involved (such as rising ticket prices over the years, a later start time and small school finalist last year, weather 3 years ago, and more tv coverage), but overall, changing venues to “spread the wealth” ended up having the opposite effect. Now the championship weekend will return to a more proven model, and there’s even talk that it might have to regress back to the college campuses of Maryland or Rutgers.
Also take into account the MHSAA football and hockey championships. Every year they’re held in the same location (in Metro Detroit). Ford Field (and before that the Silverdome) for football and Compuware Arena (previously Flint IMA) for hockey.
Overall, the realities of the real numbers, geography, and practicality will dictate the MHSAA Lacrosse Championship location in the future. “Fairness” (which becomes a highly subjective point when really looking at the numbers) and “it’s our turn” (which is a much truer example of “because I said so”) are noble ideals, and might sound good, but simply not reality.
Good points, but again, it’s about representation. Your point is that the demographics support keeping the state championship games in Oakland County. I’ve shown number after number that indicates it’s simply not the case. THat’s where “because I said so” comes in. If it’s because there are more people playing lacrosse in Oakland County or the Detroit Area on the whole – which is certainly true – then the hosting of the tournament should reflect that. It’s more realistic to reflect who is actually participating in the tournament (particularly those final games).
Like I said in my previous comment, it’s not about dragging Brother Rice down (let me be very clear – I think the MHSAA is completely moronic in its attempts to level the playing field by passing “Rice Rule” after “Rice Rule” to knock them down, instead of giving other teams the opportunity to rise to that level), but giving others a chance to host. If East Grand Rapids submits a bid for the championships, their proposal should be just as viable as Seaholm or Athens. Especially given that their facility, setting, etc. is a cut (or eight) above those two schools, the potential demographic “unfairness” to the East side of the state is more than balanced out by the fact that the West side of the state has been dealing with the travel each of the past eight years.
As far as other sports, there is maaaaybe one acceptable hockey venue (Van Andel Arena) on the west side of the state, and there zero acceptable (or existing) indoor football facilities for state championship games. Neither of those is a growth sport trying to increase its exposure in an area where the game is booming, either. Those specific two examples are also in the face of the evidence of… every other MHSAA-sanctioned sport (with the exception of basketball, which is pretty much always in East Lansing due to a lack of other viable alternatives as much as anything), which rotates between multiple regions and venues.
Good points as well (and not at all to imply that you were anti-Rice, or anything even remotely close to it).
Ok, let’s really look at representation and what teams are really there at the end of the day. Of the westside teams (in the MHSAA era) FHNE has been to the Finals once, FHC 3 times, and EGR 6 times. And again, only one time was there more than one (2/4) westside team in the Finals. So you’re really talking about “accommodating” 1 or 2 teams at the “expense” of 8 eastside teams. Or 4 potential teams vs a dozen or so ‘contenders’. Or 70 teams vs 20. Either way, the numbers are really tough to justify.
The decision has already been made and I wish EGR all the best as host. Yes, I think it will be a cool setting and it’s nice to see the westside get their shot, however, I can’t just ignore the big problems with the numbers, geography, and practicality of the matter. We’ll have to wait and see what happens in June!
Nice discussion. Tim, you’re holding up well defending the Westsiders point of view. By some reasoning here the finals would never be anywhere else but SE Michigan. I think one of the things that the MHSAA could do is to say that it should be geocentric and put it say in Brighton or Lansing. Now much fewer people are happy.
I do like the idea of allowing the teams over there to host. I would prefer that over a completely neutral site. There have been a few times that a west side team has won and had to celebrate 2-3 hours from home with a smaller crowd than they would have nearer to home.
I do not think we need to use the state HS Finals to “Grow the Game.” I don’t think the game needs any help growing anymore. We are already short quality coaches and officials to support the game appropriately.
As for Cranbrook, it does not have the infrastructure to support what the MHSAA wants to do. Make money. The folks that promoted sanctioning perhaps did not foresee these kinds of issues. It is done.
I do think the MHSAA could have more sympathy for the locations of the teams and when they do host in SE Michigan, they should try to put it on the west side of the Detroit metro area thus making travel for the teams to the west a little bit easier.
Minor correction from the document, Forest Hills Central is listed as the #1 seed in D2.
East Grand Rapids is a wonderful venue for high school lacrosse or football. Not having a track around the field puts spectators right on top of the action. There is also a concourse that rings the field allowing spectators to walk all the way around easily for concessions or to get a different vantage point on the action.
Add in a view of Reed’s Lake from the home side of the field and that the high school & stadium setting is in a small-town downtown area with multiple restaurants and local shops and it will really be a pleasant surprise for those that have not attended a game at EGR before. Picture a nice small-college stadium in downtown Birmingham.
I think the size of the crowds will surprise everyone, especially if a west side team makes the finals in both D1 and/or D2. In addition to local teams making the MHSAA finals over the years, west side summer travel teams (Heat & True among others) have done well on the east coast the past few years so there is really a great deal of interest in lacrosse on the west side and lakeshore and I think attendance will be very large.
Parking will be somewhat tight, but EGR routinely puts several thousand in the stadium (it’s full and standing room only) for big-time high school football games and fans typically park on nearby streets or in a ramp a few blocks away in addition to parking in the school lots. Not a big deal on a nice June Saturday afternoon!
Good discussion on this topic. Nothing promotes interest like a little “controversy”.
I’ve been to all three locations several times, and the parking situation at Athens is the best, hands down. However, East Grand Rapids is easily No. 2. The parking situation at Seaholm is terrible. It’s like if East Grand Rapids only had the neighborhood parking, without the convenient street parking, parking lots, and nearby parking structure.
I’ve said for years that Seaholm and Athens are poor for the finals. Seaholm spends half the game chasing fans off the rail so everyone else can see. I give the school and parents credit there. They make an effort to make it special, but there are limitations on the facility. Athens just doesn’t seem to care that they are host. It always seems as if it’s an inconvenience that everyone is there.
That being said, moving it to the west side is still ridiculous. This has nothing to do with Rice getting an advantage. The MHSAA is passing rules limiting how often and how far Rice can travel. They will play anyone, anywhere and anytime so the state final being 5 minutes or 5 hours away I don’t think it will have an impact.
I’ve been advocating moving it back to Cranbrook for years. There was a tradition and festival atmosphere to it. If you’ve ever been able to watch a game in Virginia at Klöckner Stadium, The Oval was very similar. The fans were right on top of the field and it was an all day event promoting youth, girls and boys lacrosse. You want to grow the game? Embrace the whole community to come out for an event like that. It was an absolute blast.
I agree with Clark that it’s hard to charge admission for an event at Cranbrook, but if the MHSAA were solely focused on money, they would stagger the regional finals. I don’t remember if it was last year or 2011, but one year 7 of 8 regional finals were on the exact same date and time. There was no way for college coaches to scout more than one game, die hards like me could only go to one game when we would have gone to several D1 and D2 games and the other teams couldn’t go scout each other.
My big complaint about this whole thing. The location of the final might have upset 21% of the population, but it wasn’t broken. The 300 mile rule and the simultaneous regional finals are what’s broken. I appreciate that the west side has been represented well in the finals. I know they have passionate fans, great facilities and players. If they want to move the final so it’s “fair” try to work a deal with MSU to play at Spartan Stadium. If they won’t do it try a Holt or Okemos. That’s a move to make it convenient. 100 teams and only 21 are west side. 6 are in Mid-Michigan and of the remaining 73 most are withing 45 minutes of Oakland County. I can see several players/coaches/fans not involved going to the game in their backyard. I don’t see them traveling.
Believe me, I know that the location of the finals isn’t your chief complaint. You and I both agree that the MHSAA and its policies are generally very bad for the game.
In my day job, I have seen incontrovertible proof time after time that student-athlete welfare isn’t on the Association’s mind when it comes to decision-making. It cares about its own interests (and this is more apparent with football than lacrosse, but it still applies), particularly its control of high school athletes in the state. If student-athlete welfare suffers in the name of the MHSAA keeping its full control, well, they see that as acceptable collateral damage.
To be sure, this debate isn’t limited to lacrosse. There is precedent, on both sides of the argument, from lacrosse’s cousin hockey. In that sport, there are periodic calls for the UP to have a chance to host the Finals.
No doubt that as western MI hockey gains more prominence (as it has started to in the last few years) that they’ll want their chance too. (By the way Tim, I think Van Andel Arena would be more than suitable, given that they host the Griffins and some Red Wings preseason games.)
I guess these are the types of issues that come up as high school sports grow in big states.